[00:00:00] This is a long anticipated episode, and I can say that because it is currently September, almost October, as I’m recording this episode. And I got on my Instagram stories this last week when I was talking about how I was preparing for the episode and a little bit nervous as I was preparing for it because Mr.

David Goggins has such a cult following and people that just live and breathe his mentality and look up to him so much for, for good reasons, for very good reasons. But because I am going to be talking about some things that I don’t necessarily agree with that he puts out there to his 12. 5 million followers.

Insane. I had no idea he had such a large following. Um, not that he will ever even listen to this episode. [00:01:00] Um, but I do know that when people follow someone else and like really, really truly believe in what they have to say, if someone else comes along and says, I’m not really sure about that. You know, that’s just how the.

Internet work, how humans work. But with that said, I am really excited to have this conversation because I think so much of what David Goggins does talk about. is, is great. However, there are some things that I don’t necessarily agree with, given my background in mindset, behavior change, and psychology, and the science of those things, and like, what we know actually helps people stay motivated, hit their goals, etc.

So, for those of you who don’t know who David Goggins is, um, is. I’m not going to give like a super long backstory here. And I actually really, really, really would encourage you to head over to Instagram, watch some of his reels, um, [00:02:00] learn a little bit more about him in general. And that’s going to give you a lot more context for this episode.

What I will say is that he is a very powerful storyteller. I listened to his book on Um, like audio, his audio book in, it was during COVID, so like to 2020 probably, um, which yeah, it would make sense. Listen to his book on Audible. And yeah. His, like, his storytelling capabilities are just so strong and he also just, it’s hard to not tell his story very powerfully because it is such a powerful story.

Like, he is a very powerful individual with a lot of pain and tragedy in his younger years, lots of really intense challenges that he’s gone through. Um, and he’s essentially this child that was born out of tragedy and turned into this Super endurance athlete and somewhat of like a poster [00:03:00] child for the word discipline.

So that’s what I’ll say about that. Like he’s achieved some insane things in his life. He is the only member of the U. S. Armed Forces to complete the SEAL training. Including the two Hell Weeks that it’s called, the U. S. Army Ranger School, and the Air Force Tactical Air Controller Training. So all three of those.

He is the only member of the U. S. Armed Forces who’s done all three of those things. He’s also completed over 60 ultra marathons, triathlons, and ultra Triathlons, but not just, like, completing them, like, oh, to say I did it type of thing. He’s set records and is often placing in the top five for those things.

So, this man is impressive. That is the objective truth, okay? So, he wrote a book called Can’t Hurt Me. That’s the book that I read. Um, if you are If you are [00:04:00] interested to hear more about his story after I shared all of that, like, definitely read the book. It is a really engaging story. And here’s the thing, all of his success in the variety of areas that he’s seen success in at this point, A lot of what he attributes his ability to do these really, really hard, grueling things is his mindset.

And so I’m over here like, oh, okay, we love that. Let’s talk more about that. Um, and a lot of, What he’s done showcases how he really does have a strong growth mindset, and sort of like, duh, if you know all of this stuff and know the details of what he’s accomplished, but what you might not know is that he actually failed the entry test to the military twice before getting in, and to me that is such an, like, an immediate problem.

obvious growth mindset characteristic that you fail two [00:05:00] times at something and you’re still like, no, this is still for me. I got to, I just got to figure out how to make it happen. Whereas so many people would fail at something once or not even try because they’re worried about failing. So that in and of itself, immediate, I’m like, growth mindset.

We love to see it. He also frequently talks about just leaning into pain and discomfort and like that is how you’re actually going to see success, which is definitely another growth mindset way of seeing things. He does take things to do an extreme, again, for those of you who are aware of him and his content and like what he It does, uh, as far as discomfort and pain and what he puts himself through to sort of prove things to himself.

But at the same time, I can’t say that that’s incorrect because how often, how many times on this freaking podcast have I talked about how discomfort equals growth? Like, that’s where you’re going to see growth and how I [00:06:00] myself have leaned into discomfort and pain and like spent time there because I knew that there was something for me on the other side.

So definitely. Something else he mentions too is just about how talent and natural gifts aren’t required to be successful, and I love, love, love, love that narrative. Because those with a fixed mindset often fall prey to the opposite, thinking that like, Oh, I, I’m not going to be successful because I don’t have the talent.

I don’t have the natural ability or seeing people who are successful and making the assumption that the reason they’re successful is because they have talent or natural ability. And of course. There’s, you know, grain of truth to that, that people who are maybe professional athletes, things like that, they have some sort of talent, but it doesn’t mean they didn’t work their frickin asses off to get there, right?

Like, Michael Jordan didn’t just walk on to an NBA court. [00:07:00] Doing as well as he did, right? He spent a lot of time and effort and saw a lot of failure and challenges along his journey in order to get there. So I do really, really like that. And in so many cases in David Goggins life, Most people would have given up, and he kept going.

And that is, that perseverance, that ability to see failure and setbacks is just more information for him to pivot and figure out what he needs to do next in order to still be successful, is a beautiful example of a growth mindset. And I do think that a lot of his success has to do with where his mindset was at during so many of these years.

things in his life. But there are some things that he talks about that I don’t really love. Um, and I’m gonna get into that now. So, that said, before [00:08:00] y’all come at me, because you’re big David Goggins fans, I love this man. He is incredible. What he’s done is incredible, but that doesn’t mean that everything he says is going to be directly applicable to every other person.

And also really helpful when we’re talking from a. Behavior change and mindset and psychological evidence based way of seeing it, right? So, the first thing I have here is that he has this Uh, perspective, that you just need to ignore your negative thoughts, and that’s how you’re going to be successful.

That negative thoughts are going to come up, and you just need to ignore them and do things anyway. And, you know, again, to some degree, have, seeing those thoughts is like, okay, that thought’s there, I’m just gonna move along, and like, do things anyway. I don’t think that that’s inherently, like, harmful, or wrong, or anything.

Um, but, Having negative thoughts is part of the human experience when you’re going through anything [00:09:00] challenging, when you’re trying to develop a new skill, when you’re learning something new. You’re going to have situations where there’s a little voice in the back of your head telling you that you’re not going to be able to do it or that it’s too hard or that it should come easier to you.

And I don’t think ignoring those thoughts just outright is the best path to take if you want to still be successful. Um, which is interesting because David Goggins does talk all the time about facing your fears and having honest conversations with yourself. But then he also at the same time sort of contradicts himself in this way by saying just ignore those negative thoughts.

Because ignoring a negative thought is not the same thing as having an honest conversation with yourself about those thoughts. So, little bit of contradiction there. Um, my advice in this case would be to get curious. On where those thoughts come from, I have a previous episodes, just a couple episodes back about things that I do to kind of work on my own mindset [00:10:00] as someone who has been a mindset researcher, like, what am I doing for myself?

And I actually talk about this in that episode and how they do like, Talk to myself, like truly sometimes in the mirror, talk to myself about the negative thoughts that I’m having when they come up and I literally will look at myself and say, where did that come from, Casey? Like, why are you thinking this?

And spend some time to really uncover, you know, the evidence for that thought, the evidence against that thought, and come to a more accurate depiction of why that thought’s happening. Because there is a reason. And to spend some time there versus just ignoring it, I think is going to be so much more beneficial to you.

Okay, most of what I am saying here about maybe things that I don’t necessarily agree with that David Goggins has said are literally things that he has said. So I’m like looking at my notes here and everything that I’m saying is based on a quote that I pulled from a, a reel of his or an article. So just keep that in mind that I’m, I’m not just like saying like, it sounds like he would say this, like he’s [00:11:00] literally said these words.

Um, he made comments and this was from a reel, I remember this one. You have to learn to show up. regardless of motivation. And I, I kind of like this too, right? Like we understand motivation is a flighty character. We can’t rely on that all the time, but there’s so much more to it than just saying like the usual, right?

You just gotta be disciplined. You can’t rely on motivation. And I have a whole ass episode on that specific topic of motivation versus discipline. It’s episode number 12. So I’m not going to get too much into that here, but just know that The type of motivation matters, so we, we shouldn’t be focusing on just being like anti motivation, but instead looking to see how we can cultivate more intrinsic motivation, so doing things that are more.

really personally rewarding to us, or at least figuring out a way, if there’s something, a [00:12:00] goal that you’re trying to work to, how can you make it more personally rewarding? Because the more you do that, the more self determined your motivation will be. And this is literally coming from self determination theory.

And the more you can do that, the more likely you are going to be able to stick to that thing, the behaviors that support that outcome that you are looking for. And with that said, Goggins also talks about how people need a pat on the back or accountability from others, and he doesn’t necessarily need those things, and that’s also why he’s been so successful.

And, again, I just kind of, I see this as more of like an intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation conversation, because, yeah, if you are doing things, Solely because you’re getting, like, a pat on the back from someone else, that’s extrinsic motivation, right? And that’s not really going to be that helpful to you, so I agree with him, I guess, in that regard.[00:13:00] 

Um, but at the same time, this idea of, you know, like, no one’s coming to save you, that type of mentality that he showcases a lot. can also make people think that they don’t need to ask for help. Shouldn’t have to seek resources or support or if there’s someone out there who’s done what they’ve done that they shouldn’t like try to see if they could get in contact with that person and learn from them.

Like that is, that is not what we want to do. And in fact, having a growth mindset is being willing to know when you need help, when you need to seek resources, when you can’t do something on your own and social support is. It’s so important. It’s so important. So this whole, like, people who need a pat on the back, people who need accountability, like, no one is coming to save you, it’s a very extreme way of being, which is, you know, like, if you look up David Goggins in the dictionary, like, the word extreme would be like a synonym, [00:14:00] right?

So, like, I get it. I get it. That’s, like, his thing. Um, but asking for help is, is a strong thing to do. And being vulnerable enough to recognize when you do need to ask for help, I think, is not something that we should be discouraging. Okay. Next thing, he says, the problem is you. You are the problem. You are the reason why you are not successful.

And again, if we’re talking about, like, your mindsets getting in the way of your success, then I guess we could say that because it’s your mindset, then the problem is you, right? But I. I do think that it could, like, maybe push some people out of, like, this victim mentality type of thing. So, like, hearing from David Goggins that, like, you’re the only person standing in your way, like, the biggest problem is yourself, they may be, like, your family.

Frickin right. I’m going to do something about that. I’m going to take [00:15:00] responsibility. And if that’s the case, then excellent, right? But I’d argue that when we talk about victim mentality, we’re also just kind of talking about fixed mindsets. People who don’t think that they’re actually capable of doing it, of being successful.

So This can create a slippery slope to an even more fixed mindset, because if people think I’m not capable of doing this thing, and then David Goggins comes and says, like, you’re the only reason you’re not successful, they’re just gonna be like, fuck, you’re right, then this is, it’s all on me, and I’m not capable, I already knew that, and they’re just, they’re stuck there even further, right?

We don’t want to make that worse, so I don’t really, I don’t really love that narrative too much. This, this next one actually came from a conversation in level two of the health mindset coaching certification. We were talking, we got on the topic of David Goggins and actually that’s the reason why I decided to do this episode.

I get so many great ideas from my students. [00:16:00] Um, and We have, we have 21 students in level 2 right now. It’s a very hands on, sort of like, apprenticeship style program. We spend 5 months together and we have pretty lengthy calls, have really in depth discussions, and it is amazing. Of those 21, I think we have 4 men in the group.

And in general, men are just much less. less likely. I’ve noticed over the 700 plus students that we’ve worked with in the health mindset coaching certification, probably 20 percent of them are men, like men are less likely to, I don’t know if that’s to see mindset and behavior change in psychology as something that they need in their coaching practices.

But anyway, I digress. That’s a conversation for a different time. Um, but actually it’s kind of parallel to the conversation we’re talking about now, because one of the men. In my, in this cohort, when we were talking about David Goggins, he made a comment about how so much of, like, the stuff that David Goggins [00:17:00] does and then people who kind of, like, play off what he does, just taking things to, like, absolute extremes and running their body into the ground and doing things that are so physically challenging that it is literally painful to them, but they’re doing that from a mental toughness perspective.

Um, this guy who is, um, in level two, he was like, yeah, that’s because men will do anything to distract themselves from like real feelings and emotion and pushing themselves to physical pain instead of actually feeling things. And I was like, Oh, interesting take, but it actually goes along. And when I was like, Spending some time reviewing content from David Goggins in preparation of this episode.

There was a post that says, men will do, it was, I think it was from Reddit actually, someone wrote, men will do literally anything to improve their mental health except go to therapy. And I just kind of like chuckled at that, but I do feel like there’s something to this of like, how much are you [00:18:00] taking like physical measures and extreme measures.

to distract yourself from doing the inner work and maybe having to be a little bit more vulnerable and spend some time with your feelings. Oh my god, I know. So just like, honestly, this topic was a little bit more food for thought. I don’t want to make any assumptions that like, that’s the situation for David Goggins because like, I don’t, I don’t know him, obviously.

So um, but this is also kind of like, The same reason he’s gone so viral and has such an extreme following at this point is because he’s controversial in the world that we live in today that is starting to, like, lean into, Being more soft and taking time to rest and recover and that whole conversation.

And so when he comes in and says, like, basically, not, not to say that he doesn’t have, like, any recovery days, right? But when he comes in and, [00:19:00] like, does, does so much of the opposite of that type of conversation, there’s a lot of people that go, Yeah, like, that’s the way it should be, like, screw all this, like, soft, emotional, take some time to care for yourself type of conversation too.

So, And that said, you know, it does present to me though, the same issue of like being too far on the other side of the spectrum, being too soft, if you will, and spending too much time just like coddling versus actually saying like, Hey, what went wrong here? And how can we learn from that and get uncomfortable and talk about it?

So. I think it can go in either direction, and just obviously he sits very much so on the extreme side of like, don’t be soft, just be hard, and suck it up type of thing. Um, and this obviously just brings us to the conversation of all or nothing mentality, and I think we can see how that plays in here. I’m not gonna go in depth on that, I actually have a whole episode, episode 9.

Episode 9 is all about [00:20:00] All or nothing thinking, that approach. So, um, but speaking of all or nothing, something else that Goggins does a lot is talk about how important effort is, and that you really just need to, again, like, suck it up, try harder in order to get what you want. And of course, of course, there’s something to this because effort is important.

Nobody got anywhere without putting some effort in, right? But This can also lead to a really, really common cognitive distortion, and it’s called a cognitive distortion, I should say, too. I should define that, since I don’t think we’ve spent any time on the podcast talking about them. It’s essentially just like an irrational way of thinking, something we as humans do think irrationally.

Irrationally. A lot. And this cognitive distortion that I’m thinking of specifically is called Heaven’s Reward Fallacy. In HMCC Level 2, we go through all the different types of cognitive distortions and biases that we have as humans, and [00:21:00] how to recognize those in our clients, and from a coaching perspective, help them work through it.

So one of them we do talk about, and I’m talking about here, is the Heaven’s Reward Fallacy. And this is the belief that we deserve a good outcome so long as we work hard and we make enough sacrifices. It’s sort of like we’re collecting points in our life to be cashed in for something later down the line.

That’s this like belief that we have. But this can obviously lead to disappointment, frustration, and Anger, even when that reward doesn’t actually end up materializing after we’ve spent so much time and effort and sacrifice in order to get that, which then can breed a fixed mindset, right? Then it can turn into like, I spent all this time and effort and sacrifice to reach this point, to lose weight, to build this business, whatever.

And since I haven’t got the big business, I haven’t lost the weight [00:22:00] and maintained it, then I just am not cut out for this, right? May start living on this, like, hamster wheel of I don’t actually even deserve my reward because I didn’t sacrifice enough, I guess. You know, I didn’t work hard enough, I didn’t sacrifice enough, so I didn’t get the reward.

And so I just have to work harder and sacrifice more. And that just, oh my god, that sounds so exhausting. And I don’t want you guys to spend time in that. Any more than you need to, because we will do it automatically as humans, but that’s where I do have this issue with, uh, David Goggins just putting so much effort, putting, excuse me, putting so much focus on effort, just try harder, try harder, try harder, try harder, like on repeat, because, There’s so much more to that and then it can lead to exactly what I was just talking about.

Lastly, um, kind of taking this more big picture, I was having a conversation with Sarah Tierney. Hi Sarah, if you’re listening. Sarah is a co instructor inside HMCC. She went through [00:23:00] HMCC in the first round in 2020 and has since kind of come underneath my wing and become such a brilliant brilliant coach in the space when it comes to behavior change, mindset, psychology, so much so that we now have her help out inside the certification.

So I was having a conversation with her because I went to her and I was like, I’m recording this episode. I’d love to just like bounce some things off of you and see if I can come up with anything else I want to share. And that’s where this came to. And the conversation that we were having, and she was sharing with me too, is this like, With the David Goggins type of mentality and just like, Go hard, you don’t need to rest, just push harder, like stop being so soft type of mentality.

Is just like, the question of what is all of this even fucking for, right? This insane amount of pain and discipline, all of that, like, for what? Like, why, why even [00:24:00] do all of that, right? And again, like, the David Goggins argument is to prove it to yourself and build a stronger mental capacity or whatever.

But again, for what? Like, what is, what is that actually doing for you? How is that adding to your life? Because ultimately the goal really is, for all of us who are walking this earth currently, is to just, you know, Live a good, live the life, live a good life to the best of our ability, to increase our quality of life, like we’re constantly trying to do that, right, so how is all of that pain, discipline, forcing yourself to do things you don’t want to all of the time just to prove this to yourself, is that adding to your quality of life?

You know what, if it is, Please continue, please continue, but that is the question I have, is like, is this actually helping, and like, what’s the purpose of it all? Um, which, all of this too, this conversation in general, really makes me obviously [00:25:00] reflect on my own success. And you bet your ass, a lot of my success, so much of my success, came to me because I was willing to do hard things.

And I was willing to do things when other people didn’t want to do them and lean into discomfort. Also, recognizing that sometimes the hard things are the soft things. I can work myself into the ground. I, I know that I can. So I am aware when I need to rest because that will be just as productive as working my, more productive actually, because getting to a place of, you know, call it burnout or whatever is not going to help you be more successful either.

So. You know, I don’t have, like, a super elaborate morning routine where, like, I set myself up for the day and I, like, really relax myself [00:26:00] into, like, a perfect situa whatever. You know, like, I’m I’m not I wake up, I walk my dog, and I get to work. There’s also a decent amount of caffeine involved in that process.

And there have been many times in my life where I’ve had to just, like, get over it and get back to work. And just, like, truly, like, suck it up. This is, this is life. We move on. And I’m not a wallower. I hate getting pitied for anything. But I also appreciate softness and slowness. And I understand how that really, really adds to my life also.

In fact, I have a tattoo that represents duality and this idea of both strong and soft existing in the same place, dark and light. And I do think that there is something to be said for all of that. But of course, a happy medium like that isn’t what Reddit threads are written about. It’s not how you get on the biggest [00:27:00] podcasts.

If you’re just like, happy medium, that’s where we should land, right? So if anything’s anything at all. David Goggins knows that being different, making people think differently, and going against the grain, is a great way to get attention, and it’s a great way to build a personal brand. And that he has done very, very well.

Okay, my friends, and that is where we will wrap the David Goggins episode, at least for now. I’m so, so curious to hear what you think of this episode. If you’re willing, if you did really enjoy it, sharing it, On your Instagram stories and tagging me so then I can give you some love and we can have some conversation about the episode would be amazing.

Amazing, amazing. It would help me so much. And also, obviously, getting this in the hands of, you know, the select [00:28:00] people in your life that you may need to hear this episode. It’s a great way to do it, too. And, as always, if you would be so kind. to leave a review if you enjoyed this episode, and then make sure you screenshot that review and throw it into our review form so you can be up for winning free workshops from me, because we’re doing that every single month.

Okay? That is all I have, and I will see you next [00:29:00] time.